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	<title>Comments on: Til Death Do Us Part? Models of Engagement</title>
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	<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/til-death-do-us-part-models-of-engagement/</link>
	<description>Global discussion of public relations from local perspectives</description>
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		<title>By: Toni Muzi Falconi</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/til-death-do-us-part-models-of-engagement/comment-page-1/#comment-1911</link>
		<dc:creator>Toni Muzi Falconi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:07:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=627#comment-1911</guid>
		<description>Joao,
excellent points you make, and I agree.
The four merits you indicate concerning my fears that employees today, more than ever, are being trained and used by corporate public relations as (to use a politically acceptable word) &#039;ambassadors&#039; towards other stakeholder groups, have essentially to do with change processes inside (or in the immediate surroundings of) the organization&#039;s activities.

These practices have alwasy been an essential, and as you say &#039;horizontal&#039;, part of the personnel function (now called human resources).
The fact that this task is in many cases assigned today to the public relations function induces me in thinking that organizations are more concerned with ensuring a seamless consistency of how all their actors represent the organization they work for the outside world, more than with ensuring the quality of their productivity and committment to the inhouse performance their contractual obligations require.

Having said this, I am attracted by the way you integrate the &#039;relationship cycle&#039;, and would very much welcome more thoughts on this, as it not only refers to employees, but to any other stakeholder group.
I hope you will focus on a specific post related to this aspect so that we can all learn, compare and elaborate an area which certainly needs more intelligent rationalization, as it is highly crucial in a phase in which public relations is gradually transiting to a stakeholder relationship governance mode.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joao,<br />
excellent points you make, and I agree.<br />
The four merits you indicate concerning my fears that employees today, more than ever, are being trained and used by corporate public relations as (to use a politically acceptable word) &#8216;ambassadors&#8217; towards other stakeholder groups, have essentially to do with change processes inside (or in the immediate surroundings of) the organization&#8217;s activities.</p>
<p>These practices have alwasy been an essential, and as you say &#8216;horizontal&#8217;, part of the personnel function (now called human resources).<br />
The fact that this task is in many cases assigned today to the public relations function induces me in thinking that organizations are more concerned with ensuring a seamless consistency of how all their actors represent the organization they work for the outside world, more than with ensuring the quality of their productivity and committment to the inhouse performance their contractual obligations require.</p>
<p>Having said this, I am attracted by the way you integrate the &#8216;relationship cycle&#8217;, and would very much welcome more thoughts on this, as it not only refers to employees, but to any other stakeholder group.<br />
I hope you will focus on a specific post related to this aspect so that we can all learn, compare and elaborate an area which certainly needs more intelligent rationalization, as it is highly crucial in a phase in which public relations is gradually transiting to a stakeholder relationship governance mode.</p>
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		<title>By: João Duarte</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/til-death-do-us-part-models-of-engagement/comment-page-1/#comment-1910</link>
		<dc:creator>João Duarte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 23:05:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=627#comment-1910</guid>
		<description>Lots of very interesting ideas. I think, though, that the idea of the four forms of engagement, as well as the difference between involvement and engagement can be conciliated through a model representing something like a “cycle of relationship”.

In reality these are dynamic concepts which, in my view, describe better states of relationship in an evolutionary and diachronic approach. For example, before engagement there should be involvement, before involvement there should be acknowledgment. Additionally, engagement can vary according to the moment and situation and become stronger, evolve and decline. What happens when engagement declines? Disillusion? If so, though disillusion can be a form of involvement, it&#039;s certainly different from the original involvement.

So I think all this is very rich terrain for further elaboration.

Speaking to the point that Toni consistently raises about the spin in employee relations, here are some points about the issue:
1. corporate communications (or for the matter even HR) are not the sole owners of engagement processes inside an organization (people develop a lot of activities which engage them with the organization appart from our efforts)
2.  the internal communication system can be used by these people without necessarily being controlled or managed by corporate comms (the philosophy of internal symmetrical communication systems is about creating these possibilities; the web 2.0 revolution with its growing impact in internal communication)
3. the issue of companies increasingly considering the key role of employees in change processes is in itself a positive evolution in the sense that employees are increasingly being considered as actors and not just as by standers or information consumers.
4. there are a lot of issues (for example industrial safety; ethics and compliance; etc) in which companies have not just the right but the obligation (moral, legal, economical, others) to engage their employees and in which they should be firm and strict.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lots of very interesting ideas. I think, though, that the idea of the four forms of engagement, as well as the difference between involvement and engagement can be conciliated through a model representing something like a “cycle of relationship”.</p>
<p>In reality these are dynamic concepts which, in my view, describe better states of relationship in an evolutionary and diachronic approach. For example, before engagement there should be involvement, before involvement there should be acknowledgment. Additionally, engagement can vary according to the moment and situation and become stronger, evolve and decline. What happens when engagement declines? Disillusion? If so, though disillusion can be a form of involvement, it&#8217;s certainly different from the original involvement.</p>
<p>So I think all this is very rich terrain for further elaboration.</p>
<p>Speaking to the point that Toni consistently raises about the spin in employee relations, here are some points about the issue:<br />
1. corporate communications (or for the matter even HR) are not the sole owners of engagement processes inside an organization (people develop a lot of activities which engage them with the organization appart from our efforts)<br />
2.  the internal communication system can be used by these people without necessarily being controlled or managed by corporate comms (the philosophy of internal symmetrical communication systems is about creating these possibilities; the web 2.0 revolution with its growing impact in internal communication)<br />
3. the issue of companies increasingly considering the key role of employees in change processes is in itself a positive evolution in the sense that employees are increasingly being considered as actors and not just as by standers or information consumers.<br />
4. there are a lot of issues (for example industrial safety; ethics and compliance; etc) in which companies have not just the right but the obligation (moral, legal, economical, others) to engage their employees and in which they should be firm and strict.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristen E. Sukalac</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/til-death-do-us-part-models-of-engagement/comment-page-1/#comment-1909</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristen E. Sukalac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 11:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=627#comment-1909</guid>
		<description>Toni--I actually think that you and Mike are in agreement. He&#039;s not necessarily promoting any of these models, he&#039;s just raising the point that the word engagement has many facets and that organizations need to use the term in a more thoughtful manner.

With regard to the Ring model, one point not discussed by Mike is that marriage is theoretically &quot;until death do us part&quot; but in reality it&#039;s more often &quot;until the legal settlement do us part&quot;. That&#039;s an interesting parallel with the shift from a whole-career loyalty between employer and employee to the emerging model of greater employee mobility and even a free agent model for a lot of functions.

By touching on values, I think you have planted the seen of an entire other post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toni&#8211;I actually think that you and Mike are in agreement. He&#8217;s not necessarily promoting any of these models, he&#8217;s just raising the point that the word engagement has many facets and that organizations need to use the term in a more thoughtful manner.</p>
<p>With regard to the Ring model, one point not discussed by Mike is that marriage is theoretically &#8220;until death do us part&#8221; but in reality it&#8217;s more often &#8220;until the legal settlement do us part&#8221;. That&#8217;s an interesting parallel with the shift from a whole-career loyalty between employer and employee to the emerging model of greater employee mobility and even a free agent model for a lot of functions.</p>
<p>By touching on values, I think you have planted the seen of an entire other post!</p>
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		<title>By: Toni Muzi Falconi</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/til-death-do-us-part-models-of-engagement/comment-page-1/#comment-1908</link>
		<dc:creator>Toni Muzi Falconi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=627#comment-1908</guid>
		<description>In no way did I intend to be critical, except for the battle terms in what one would hope is a &#039;struggle&#039; to make sense out of things and relationships.... I think the post gives good insights and is useful.
What worries me as you know, Kristem, is that employee communicators are being hammered by corporate spinners and hacks to transform employees into living loudspeakers on behalf of socalled values and beliefs the organizational leadership stands for, disregarding whether they are for or against society...
One of the companies most notably famous for its &#039;stakeholder engagement&#039; practices was Lehman Brothers.. the winner of many corporate social responsibility awards was Enron...in Italy it was Parmalat..must I continue???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In no way did I intend to be critical, except for the battle terms in what one would hope is a &#8217;struggle&#8217; to make sense out of things and relationships&#8230;. I think the post gives good insights and is useful.<br />
What worries me as you know, Kristem, is that employee communicators are being hammered by corporate spinners and hacks to transform employees into living loudspeakers on behalf of socalled values and beliefs the organizational leadership stands for, disregarding whether they are for or against society&#8230;<br />
One of the companies most notably famous for its &#8217;stakeholder engagement&#8217; practices was Lehman Brothers.. the winner of many corporate social responsibility awards was Enron&#8230;in Italy it was Parmalat..must I continue???</p>
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		<title>By: Kristen E. Sukalac</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/til-death-do-us-part-models-of-engagement/comment-page-1/#comment-1907</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristen E. Sukalac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=627#comment-1907</guid>
		<description>Toni -- To be fair, Mike&#039;s thoughts were originally drafted on the subject of employee engagement, which explains why he doesn&#039;t talk much about other stakeholders.  I&#039;m the one who thought that these ideas could be extended (however perfectly) to think about engagement with other groups.

Regarding your terminology, I&#039;m not sure I&#039;ve EVER heard an organization strive for employee (or other stakeholder) INVOLVEMENT, whereas many toss &quot;engagement&quot; around fairly cavalierly.

Kevin -- It also helps when the only time we can meet is when one of us has to catch the Eurostar back to the Continent!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toni &#8212; To be fair, Mike&#8217;s thoughts were originally drafted on the subject of employee engagement, which explains why he doesn&#8217;t talk much about other stakeholders.  I&#8217;m the one who thought that these ideas could be extended (however perfectly) to think about engagement with other groups.</p>
<p>Regarding your terminology, I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;ve EVER heard an organization strive for employee (or other stakeholder) INVOLVEMENT, whereas many toss &#8220;engagement&#8221; around fairly cavalierly.</p>
<p>Kevin &#8212; It also helps when the only time we can meet is when one of us has to catch the Eurostar back to the Continent!</p>
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		<title>By: Toni Muzi Falconi</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/til-death-do-us-part-models-of-engagement/comment-page-1/#comment-1906</link>
		<dc:creator>Toni Muzi Falconi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=627#comment-1906</guid>
		<description>I am probably misled by the aggressive terminology which I thought was mostly typical of advertisers, rather than employee communicators, but I am not sure if this approach is consistant with some of my stronger beliefs, which are:

a: employees are only one, and not necessarily the most important (this is situational) of an organization&#039;s stakeholder groups (in fact you do say this at the very end of your post..);

b: the is a significant conceptual, but even more, operational difference, in my view, between involving and engaging:

Involvement is a situation in which the organization allows user-friendly access, and listens carefully to input from, its various stakeholder groups about organizational activities and processes ; and this, for any responsible organization,  is a must and, at the same time, the same organization recognizes that stakeholders themselves decide to be such, whether the organization likes it or not.

Engagement is, instead, a more active interaction with the more relevant stakeholders which the organization, in this case, selects to sit around a physical or digital tabel with. In this case, the worst and most often scenario is that the organization selects invitees on the basis of whether they agree or not with its positions, rather than based on their real relevance and real or potential impact on pursued objectives.

In both situations (involvement and engagement) the responsibility, and the correlated effectiveness, of the organization&#039;s efforts largely rely on the quality of the contents and channels of involvement, and the representativeness of those it selects to engage with.

I certainly agree that a one-size-fits-all approach to these issues is as good (i.e. nil) as any other one-size-fits-all approach to any managerial issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am probably misled by the aggressive terminology which I thought was mostly typical of advertisers, rather than employee communicators, but I am not sure if this approach is consistant with some of my stronger beliefs, which are:</p>
<p>a: employees are only one, and not necessarily the most important (this is situational) of an organization&#8217;s stakeholder groups (in fact you do say this at the very end of your post..);</p>
<p>b: the is a significant conceptual, but even more, operational difference, in my view, between involving and engaging:</p>
<p>Involvement is a situation in which the organization allows user-friendly access, and listens carefully to input from, its various stakeholder groups about organizational activities and processes ; and this, for any responsible organization,  is a must and, at the same time, the same organization recognizes that stakeholders themselves decide to be such, whether the organization likes it or not.</p>
<p>Engagement is, instead, a more active interaction with the more relevant stakeholders which the organization, in this case, selects to sit around a physical or digital tabel with. In this case, the worst and most often scenario is that the organization selects invitees on the basis of whether they agree or not with its positions, rather than based on their real relevance and real or potential impact on pursued objectives.</p>
<p>In both situations (involvement and engagement) the responsibility, and the correlated effectiveness, of the organization&#8217;s efforts largely rely on the quality of the contents and channels of involvement, and the representativeness of those it selects to engage with.</p>
<p>I certainly agree that a one-size-fits-all approach to these issues is as good (i.e. nil) as any other one-size-fits-all approach to any managerial issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Klein</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/til-death-do-us-part-models-of-engagement/comment-page-1/#comment-1905</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Klein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 15:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=627#comment-1905</guid>
		<description>Usually, Kristen is ambulatory and in one piece when we meet in London.  Kevin, on the other hand, is usually lugging an incapacitated appendage or two, hence the choice of less glamorous surroundings near his South London home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Usually, Kristen is ambulatory and in one piece when we meet in London.  Kevin, on the other hand, is usually lugging an incapacitated appendage or two, hence the choice of less glamorous surroundings near his South London home.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Keohane</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/til-death-do-us-part-models-of-engagement/comment-page-1/#comment-1904</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Keohane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 15:06:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=627#comment-1904</guid>
		<description>Hey there.  This is a great entry of Mike&#039;s.  He&#039;s never taken me to the champagne bar, though ... we typically meet at The Hobgoblin in New Cross Gate.  Now I know...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey there.  This is a great entry of Mike&#8217;s.  He&#8217;s never taken me to the champagne bar, though &#8230; we typically meet at The Hobgoblin in New Cross Gate.  Now I know&#8230;</p>
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