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	<title>Comments on: +10%! those increasingly muddy waters between evaluation/measurement and return on investment</title>
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	<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/10-those-increasingly-muddy-waters-between-evaluationmeasurement-and-return-on-investment/</link>
	<description>Global discussion of public relations from local perspectives</description>
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		<title>By: Sean Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/10-those-increasingly-muddy-waters-between-evaluationmeasurement-and-return-on-investment/comment-page-1/#comment-1926</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:24:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=629#comment-1926</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Toni -- I assuredly will make a habit of it...
;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Toni &#8212; I assuredly will make a habit of it&#8230; <img src='http://www.prconversations.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Toni Muzi Falconi</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/10-those-increasingly-muddy-waters-between-evaluationmeasurement-and-return-on-investment/comment-page-1/#comment-1925</link>
		<dc:creator>Toni Muzi Falconi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 14:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=629#comment-1925</guid>
		<description>You are certainly neither befuddling nor ranbling, at least not more than I am, Sean. Your argument makes sense to me and thank you for dropping in. Do it more often....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are certainly neither befuddling nor ranbling, at least not more than I am, Sean. Your argument makes sense to me and thank you for dropping in. Do it more often&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/10-those-increasingly-muddy-waters-between-evaluationmeasurement-and-return-on-investment/comment-page-1/#comment-1924</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 23:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=629#comment-1924</guid>
		<description>I wonder whether the CEO, Toni, really expected an answer. Or did he/she just expect &quot;the usual song and dance&quot; about the Art of Public Relations.

Your questions are great ones, indeed. The CEO is very willing to accept the presence of a whopping Goodwill entry on the balance sheet and knows intuitively what that figure represents. Well, can we articulate what proportion of that figure can be attributed to reputational PR matters? As the guardians of that equity, we no doubt could articulate how the Goodwill entry relates to overall value, right? It&#039;s frequently a multiplier of actual tangible equity, no?

If there is no Goodwill entry, could we ask, as you say, what dollar figure the CEO would apply to that entry if it existed?

Or am I now befuddled and rambling...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder whether the CEO, Toni, really expected an answer. Or did he/she just expect &#8220;the usual song and dance&#8221; about the Art of Public Relations.</p>
<p>Your questions are great ones, indeed. The CEO is very willing to accept the presence of a whopping Goodwill entry on the balance sheet and knows intuitively what that figure represents. Well, can we articulate what proportion of that figure can be attributed to reputational PR matters? As the guardians of that equity, we no doubt could articulate how the Goodwill entry relates to overall value, right? It&#8217;s frequently a multiplier of actual tangible equity, no?</p>
<p>If there is no Goodwill entry, could we ask, as you say, what dollar figure the CEO would apply to that entry if it existed?</p>
<p>Or am I now befuddled and rambling&#8230;?</p>
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		<title>By: Toni Muzi Falconi</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/10-those-increasingly-muddy-waters-between-evaluationmeasurement-and-return-on-investment/comment-page-1/#comment-1923</link>
		<dc:creator>Toni Muzi Falconi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=629#comment-1923</guid>
		<description>Thanks Bill and Paolo and Mark.

Let me try another approach keeping in mind your (and of course Kristen’s) considerations:

°analysts, the board and financial markets today value your company somewhere between, say, 80 and 120…;
°we estimate today your pr activities contribute to that value some 20%...;
°all other things being equal, we believe it realistic to say that the program we presented today will be superior by 10%. Which means that if you decide for our program and the final result will be 10% more than 20% (i.e. 22%) we will all be happy.
If it is more than that, you give us a bonus equal to 20% of the above 10% increase, and if it is less than that then you may withdraw proportionally from our fees.

In saying this, you will of course remark, I have invented the attributed company value, the value of pr, the hunch that it is possible to measure ups and downs in a one year (rather than a 2 or 3 years as Paolo had suggested) frame.
But is this really so?

If you think about this carefully the whole argument is in the context of a conventionalist approach (I am sure there is more scientific term, but can’t find it now).

There is, after all, no logical reason why
*2+2=4;
*ten inches is that long…;
*that p&amp;g develops 1000 grp’s
are more material statements than 10 stakeholders saying that, from 1 to 10, their trust in you is an average of 6 and that each one of those 6 points, integrated with other relationship indicators, is equal to x% of corporate value….

The only pbstacle is that while most actors in the world would agree that 2+2 is 4 and that 10 inches are that long or that grp’s are so calculated, the same cannot be said on the latter.

So, once more, it boils down to making sure that the actors involved (in this case, the Ceo, the internal PR structure, the Consultancy team, the auditors) all convene to agree on the overall and specific objectives, resources and time committed and, most importantly, on the indicators adopted to evaluate results.

Are we getting any closer, or have I lost my mind?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Bill and Paolo and Mark.</p>
<p>Let me try another approach keeping in mind your (and of course Kristen’s) considerations:</p>
<p>°analysts, the board and financial markets today value your company somewhere between, say, 80 and 120…;<br />
°we estimate today your pr activities contribute to that value some 20%&#8230;;<br />
°all other things being equal, we believe it realistic to say that the program we presented today will be superior by 10%. Which means that if you decide for our program and the final result will be 10% more than 20% (i.e. 22%) we will all be happy.<br />
If it is more than that, you give us a bonus equal to 20% of the above 10% increase, and if it is less than that then you may withdraw proportionally from our fees.</p>
<p>In saying this, you will of course remark, I have invented the attributed company value, the value of pr, the hunch that it is possible to measure ups and downs in a one year (rather than a 2 or 3 years as Paolo had suggested) frame.<br />
But is this really so?</p>
<p>If you think about this carefully the whole argument is in the context of a conventionalist approach (I am sure there is more scientific term, but can’t find it now).</p>
<p>There is, after all, no logical reason why<br />
*2+2=4;<br />
*ten inches is that long…;<br />
*that p&#038;g develops 1000 grp’s<br />
are more material statements than 10 stakeholders saying that, from 1 to 10, their trust in you is an average of 6 and that each one of those 6 points, integrated with other relationship indicators, is equal to x% of corporate value….</p>
<p>The only pbstacle is that while most actors in the world would agree that 2+2 is 4 and that 10 inches are that long or that grp’s are so calculated, the same cannot be said on the latter.</p>
<p>So, once more, it boils down to making sure that the actors involved (in this case, the Ceo, the internal PR structure, the Consultancy team, the auditors) all convene to agree on the overall and specific objectives, resources and time committed and, most importantly, on the indicators adopted to evaluate results.</p>
<p>Are we getting any closer, or have I lost my mind?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Weiner</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/10-those-increasingly-muddy-waters-between-evaluationmeasurement-and-return-on-investment/comment-page-1/#comment-1922</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 17:34:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=629#comment-1922</guid>
		<description>Thank you for a very lively debate.  It seems that we all believe that &quot;PR works;&quot; the questions are, &quot;how well does it work,&quot; &quot;how do we measure it,&quot; and &quot;how will contribute to my business.&quot;  These are relatively common questions and they are difficult for most PR people to answer without the further complicating question posed by the CEO.

In my experience, ROI is a relatively simple concept driven by how much money is derived for a given investment. The difficulty comes when an organization is doing and experiencing many things -- within and outside of marketing and communication -- which can affect the business performance of the organization.  However, sophisticated statistical models are being used more and more commonly to derive the ROI of PR on brand and corporate performance.  And when these methods are applied, PR performs very well, consistently delivering the best ROI of any marketing or communication channel.  Even when competing internal and external activities happen concurrently, the models can uncover the absolute and the relative contribution.

The models require a lot of performance data to create proper context...the difficulty posed by the CEO&#039;s request is in forecasting a number in advance with no context.  However, having participated in 40 or 50 similar studies, PR&#039;s ROI ranges from $4.00 to $43.00 on the dollar which is by far the best on average (mass market advertising returns $1.20 on the dollar; price promotions actually LOSE $.25 on the dollar and trade marketing generates about $2.00 on the dollar).  These numbers hold true across many industries and it should be of some comfort the CEO.

The cost for modeling is in the low six-figure range but when one considers that a company in an &quot;avoidable crisis&quot; can easily lose half its market capitalization (look at Ford and Fireston, for example), the level of investment is very small when compared to the many billioins of dollars and millions of people who may be affected.

Providing an answer to the CEO&#039;s question would be difficult for anyone without direct experience in this area but I&#039;ll bet even the CEO couldn&#039;t answer the same question were it applied to the returns from legal, HR, advertising or other areas where the level of expenditure is many times greater than the one being considered for PR.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for a very lively debate.  It seems that we all believe that &#8220;PR works;&#8221; the questions are, &#8220;how well does it work,&#8221; &#8220;how do we measure it,&#8221; and &#8220;how will contribute to my business.&#8221;  These are relatively common questions and they are difficult for most PR people to answer without the further complicating question posed by the CEO.</p>
<p>In my experience, ROI is a relatively simple concept driven by how much money is derived for a given investment. The difficulty comes when an organization is doing and experiencing many things &#8212; within and outside of marketing and communication &#8212; which can affect the business performance of the organization.  However, sophisticated statistical models are being used more and more commonly to derive the ROI of PR on brand and corporate performance.  And when these methods are applied, PR performs very well, consistently delivering the best ROI of any marketing or communication channel.  Even when competing internal and external activities happen concurrently, the models can uncover the absolute and the relative contribution.</p>
<p>The models require a lot of performance data to create proper context&#8230;the difficulty posed by the CEO&#8217;s request is in forecasting a number in advance with no context.  However, having participated in 40 or 50 similar studies, PR&#8217;s ROI ranges from $4.00 to $43.00 on the dollar which is by far the best on average (mass market advertising returns $1.20 on the dollar; price promotions actually LOSE $.25 on the dollar and trade marketing generates about $2.00 on the dollar).  These numbers hold true across many industries and it should be of some comfort the CEO.</p>
<p>The cost for modeling is in the low six-figure range but when one considers that a company in an &#8220;avoidable crisis&#8221; can easily lose half its market capitalization (look at Ford and Fireston, for example), the level of investment is very small when compared to the many billioins of dollars and millions of people who may be affected.</p>
<p>Providing an answer to the CEO&#8217;s question would be difficult for anyone without direct experience in this area but I&#8217;ll bet even the CEO couldn&#8217;t answer the same question were it applied to the returns from legal, HR, advertising or other areas where the level of expenditure is many times greater than the one being considered for PR.</p>
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		<title>By: Paolo d'Ammassa</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/10-those-increasingly-muddy-waters-between-evaluationmeasurement-and-return-on-investment/comment-page-1/#comment-1921</link>
		<dc:creator>Paolo d'Ammassa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=629#comment-1921</guid>
		<description>Very interesting topic.
All the measurement options would be less complicate if applied on a 2 or 3 years base.
My 2 cent point is if the &quot;% impact on biz&quot; is a question to be answered in a PR pitch and how the whole analisys to get a REAL answer would impact on the pitch costs... I understand this is not the starting point.. but somebody has to do this dirty job :-)

Probably a simple &quot;safe&quot; answer would be to go for a couple of case studies. Client XYZ turnover increased 15% with our PR program...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting topic.<br />
All the measurement options would be less complicate if applied on a 2 or 3 years base.<br />
My 2 cent point is if the &#8220;% impact on biz&#8221; is a question to be answered in a PR pitch and how the whole analisys to get a REAL answer would impact on the pitch costs&#8230; I understand this is not the starting point.. but somebody has to do this dirty job <img src='http://www.prconversations.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Probably a simple &#8220;safe&#8221; answer would be to go for a couple of case studies. Client XYZ turnover increased 15% with our PR program&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Huey</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/10-those-increasingly-muddy-waters-between-evaluationmeasurement-and-return-on-investment/comment-page-1/#comment-1920</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Huey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Nov 2009 13:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=629#comment-1920</guid>
		<description>Way to go, Toni! Pull a number out the air and lay it on him!
I might have said, &quot;Think of it as insurance for the profit goals you already have.&quot; (You greedy bastard)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Way to go, Toni! Pull a number out the air and lay it on him!<br />
I might have said, &#8220;Think of it as insurance for the profit goals you already have.&#8221; (You greedy bastard)</p>
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		<title>By: Toni Muzi Falconi</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/10-those-increasingly-muddy-waters-between-evaluationmeasurement-and-return-on-investment/comment-page-1/#comment-1919</link>
		<dc:creator>Toni Muzi Falconi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=629#comment-1919</guid>
		<description>right your are, but as you see it sometimes happens....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>right your are, but as you see it sometimes happens&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristen E. Sukalac</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/10-those-increasingly-muddy-waters-between-evaluationmeasurement-and-return-on-investment/comment-page-1/#comment-1918</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristen E. Sukalac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=629#comment-1918</guid>
		<description>I am convinced there are sophisticated methods to do all sorts of things, but what are the costs and benefits of soing them? You need to achieve a balance and have measurement methods that are not just theoretically realisable but also politically and economically acceptable. And from my experience, the first part of the project budget questioned by clients relates to the resources for research, measurement and evaluation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am convinced there are sophisticated methods to do all sorts of things, but what are the costs and benefits of soing them? You need to achieve a balance and have measurement methods that are not just theoretically realisable but also politically and economically acceptable. And from my experience, the first part of the project budget questioned by clients relates to the resources for research, measurement and evaluation.</p>
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		<title>By: Toni Muzi Falconi</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2009/11/10-those-increasingly-muddy-waters-between-evaluationmeasurement-and-return-on-investment/comment-page-1/#comment-1917</link>
		<dc:creator>Toni Muzi Falconi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=629#comment-1917</guid>
		<description>Point well taken but there are an economic science (actuarism)and an enourmous industry (insurance) out there which measure the value of what is unlikely to happen.
Some time ago I was immersed in the idea of applying actuarist tools and processes to public relations in its risk avoidance stance. Fascinating and highly attractive.
Not one of the experts whom I had spoken with (in Italy, Switzerland, Uk and Usa) had any doubt whatsoever that this was doable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Point well taken but there are an economic science (actuarism)and an enourmous industry (insurance) out there which measure the value of what is unlikely to happen.<br />
Some time ago I was immersed in the idea of applying actuarist tools and processes to public relations in its risk avoidance stance. Fascinating and highly attractive.<br />
Not one of the experts whom I had spoken with (in Italy, Switzerland, Uk and Usa) had any doubt whatsoever that this was doable.</p>
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