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	<title>Comments on: Blogging from Vilnius on black pr. A really freezing shower for all of us!</title>
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	<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2007/04/blogging-from-vilnius-on-black-pr-a-really-freezing-shower-for-all-of-us/</link>
	<description>Global discussion of public relations from local perspectives</description>
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		<title>By: Toni Muzi Falconi</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2007/04/blogging-from-vilnius-on-black-pr-a-really-freezing-shower-for-all-of-us/comment-page-1/#comment-319</link>
		<dc:creator>Toni Muzi Falconi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 May 2007 07:35:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=210#comment-319</guid>
		<description>I took notes as the presenter was speaking. Later on I spoke with him and he gave me his business card but have not yet got around to contacting him for further info. You might wish to contact him directly at Spinter. This note however brings up the issue of the real validity of these researches on vaguely defined concepts, such as that of black pr. To correctly interpret those answers one would need reassurance that the interviewees were supplied with a clear definition of waht they were being asked to express opinions on... Yes, I agree. Maybe Spinter&#039;s ceo, if he reads this, would like to comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I took notes as the presenter was speaking. Later on I spoke with him and he gave me his business card but have not yet got around to contacting him for further info. You might wish to contact him directly at Spinter. This note however brings up the issue of the real validity of these researches on vaguely defined concepts, such as that of black pr. To correctly interpret those answers one would need reassurance that the interviewees were supplied with a clear definition of waht they were being asked to express opinions on&#8230; Yes, I agree. Maybe Spinter&#8217;s ceo, if he reads this, would like to comment.</p>
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		<title>By: missdemand</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2007/04/blogging-from-vilnius-on-black-pr-a-really-freezing-shower-for-all-of-us/comment-page-1/#comment-318</link>
		<dc:creator>missdemand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 20:57:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=210#comment-318</guid>
		<description>tony,
have you more detailed information about the Spinter research?
How do the respondents understand the concept of black pr? If that would be clear, I guess there could be a much more interesting discussion on that (NB! LT media entitled the conference of European Political Consultants Association 2006 as a reunion of black pr technologists:)

Furthermore, the concept of black PR in LT is strongly bound with political PR. And here lie a lot of expectations of market participats (i.e. research respondents): from lobby (in the best case)or even corruptive activities (in the worst), without acknowledging the risk of illegal state surveillance upon these black technologists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tony,<br />
have you more detailed information about the Spinter research?<br />
How do the respondents understand the concept of black pr? If that would be clear, I guess there could be a much more interesting discussion on that (NB! LT media entitled the conference of European Political Consultants Association 2006 as a reunion of black pr technologists:)</p>
<p>Furthermore, the concept of black PR in LT is strongly bound with political PR. And here lie a lot of expectations of market participats (i.e. research respondents): from lobby (in the best case)or even corruptive activities (in the worst), without acknowledging the risk of illegal state surveillance upon these black technologists.</p>
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		<title>By: Judy Gombita</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2007/04/blogging-from-vilnius-on-black-pr-a-really-freezing-shower-for-all-of-us/comment-page-1/#comment-317</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy Gombita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=210#comment-317</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the education, Markus. Probably I should have qualified my statement a bit more (&quot;North American&quot; or &quot;English speaking&quot;)

The Canadian Public Relations Society does have some minimum requirements, too. From its website:

&quot;Membership is voluntary and is restricted to individuals (not firms) who are engaged in the practice of public relations on behalf of business and industrial concerns, consulting firms, trade and professional associations, governments, educational institutions, health and welfare organizations, and other similar endeavors.

Eligibility requirements are fully described in Part 4 of the Society&#039;s Bylaws. To be eligible for membership in the Canadian Public Relations Society, applicants must devote most of their work for/pay time to the practice of public relations, have a degree in public relations, or be a career teacher or administrator engaged in public relations/communications education at an accredited post-secondary institution.&quot;

Interestingly, when I was doing my research on Charles Tisdall, I learned that in the &quot;good old days&quot; the boys club voted on whether someone could be admitted to membership in CPRS or not. Something Charles apparently worked to change.

Finally Markus, any association that has you as a member is obviously a force to be reckoned with.... ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the education, Markus. Probably I should have qualified my statement a bit more (&#8220;North American&#8221; or &#8220;English speaking&#8221;)</p>
<p>The Canadian Public Relations Society does have some minimum requirements, too. From its website:</p>
<p>&#8220;Membership is voluntary and is restricted to individuals (not firms) who are engaged in the practice of public relations on behalf of business and industrial concerns, consulting firms, trade and professional associations, governments, educational institutions, health and welfare organizations, and other similar endeavors.</p>
<p>Eligibility requirements are fully described in Part 4 of the Society&#8217;s Bylaws. To be eligible for membership in the Canadian Public Relations Society, applicants must devote most of their work for/pay time to the practice of public relations, have a degree in public relations, or be a career teacher or administrator engaged in public relations/communications education at an accredited post-secondary institution.&#8221;</p>
<p>Interestingly, when I was doing my research on Charles Tisdall, I learned that in the &#8220;good old days&#8221; the boys club voted on whether someone could be admitted to membership in CPRS or not. Something Charles apparently worked to change.</p>
<p>Finally Markus, any association that has you as a member is obviously a force to be reckoned with&#8230;. <img src='http://www.prconversations.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Markus Pirchner</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2007/04/blogging-from-vilnius-on-black-pr-a-really-freezing-shower-for-all-of-us/comment-page-1/#comment-316</link>
		<dc:creator>Markus Pirchner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=210#comment-316</guid>
		<description>Judy,
it takes a little bit more than a few bucks and a formal pious lip service to some code of ethics to become a member of PRVA (Austrian PR Association). Of course you have to pay a membership fee and you have to agree to adhere to a code (Code of Athens it is at the moment) and some other regulations as explained in detail in the PRVA statutes. But besides that, to become a regular member (there are other forms of membership) you have to prove your professional qualification (by appropriate education and 3 years of practical experience).
Okay, you were talking about MAJOR pr associations :-))</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judy,<br />
it takes a little bit more than a few bucks and a formal pious lip service to some code of ethics to become a member of PRVA (Austrian PR Association). Of course you have to pay a membership fee and you have to agree to adhere to a code (Code of Athens it is at the moment) and some other regulations as explained in detail in the PRVA statutes. But besides that, to become a regular member (there are other forms of membership) you have to prove your professional qualification (by appropriate education and 3 years of practical experience).<br />
Okay, you were talking about MAJOR pr associations <img src='http://www.prconversations.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
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		<title>By: Judy Gombita</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2007/04/blogging-from-vilnius-on-black-pr-a-really-freezing-shower-for-all-of-us/comment-page-1/#comment-315</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy Gombita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=210#comment-315</guid>
		<description>In order to have carriage for the conduct of its members, doesn&#039;t a &quot;professional&quot; association have to take direct responsibility for all aspects of training (at the front end, as well as continuing professional development) of its members? (i.e., body of knowledge, responsibilities to the public, ethical aspects, etc.)

I don&#039;t know of any major public relations-related association that insists on approving that each member has attained a body of knowledge (i.e., been &quot;certified&quot;) prior to the granting of membership. (In most cases you pay your membership fee and tick-off a box saying you read the code of ethics and agree to adhere to it.)

Ergo, the credibility and argument for carriage of &quot;policing&quot; the individuals on what is right or wrong regarding practice is weaker.

&quot;As you weren&#039;t the body to train me--note, not test me on my existing skill set and knowledge--why would you be the watchdog to say what I&#039;m doing is wrong and that my membership is in jeopardy?&quot;

I concur that the German model is indeed moving this accountability and &quot;professionalism&quot; forward and I look forward to hearing more information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In order to have carriage for the conduct of its members, doesn&#8217;t a &#8220;professional&#8221; association have to take direct responsibility for all aspects of training (at the front end, as well as continuing professional development) of its members? (i.e., body of knowledge, responsibilities to the public, ethical aspects, etc.)</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know of any major public relations-related association that insists on approving that each member has attained a body of knowledge (i.e., been &#8220;certified&#8221;) prior to the granting of membership. (In most cases you pay your membership fee and tick-off a box saying you read the code of ethics and agree to adhere to it.)</p>
<p>Ergo, the credibility and argument for carriage of &#8220;policing&#8221; the individuals on what is right or wrong regarding practice is weaker.</p>
<p>&#8220;As you weren&#8217;t the body to train me&#8211;note, not test me on my existing skill set and knowledge&#8211;why would you be the watchdog to say what I&#8217;m doing is wrong and that my membership is in jeopardy?&#8221;</p>
<p>I concur that the German model is indeed moving this accountability and &#8220;professionalism&#8221; forward and I look forward to hearing more information.</p>
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		<title>By: Toni Muzi Falconi</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2007/04/blogging-from-vilnius-on-black-pr-a-really-freezing-shower-for-all-of-us/comment-page-1/#comment-314</link>
		<dc:creator>Toni Muzi Falconi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=210#comment-314</guid>
		<description>This takes us back to some of the earlier posts of tonisblog. Who does the association represent?
Its members? The profession?
And... according to this which are the consequences?
Let me explain:
°if I decide that my association represents its members, then I will be stimulated to do everything possible to make sure that its members behave differently from the rest of the professional community in order to gain that competitive advantage....but, in this case, there is no way I can coherently pretend to represent the profession per se (legal recognition etc...);
°if, instead, I decide to represent the profession as such, then I will be stimulated to be as big as possible in order to gain public legitimacy by numbers, and also to investigate, speak out etc,etc, on issues of public concern....including increasing manifestations of black pr.
As far as I know very few associations, if any, have debated this issue at lenghth and decided a policy.
We tend to remain always on both sides of the fence (the interest group and the club) and show one side of our face according to a situational interest.
This is both hoghly debatable management practice as well as a good dose of cinicism...but that is reality.
So? Where do we go from here?
I am anxious to receive from Germany answers to the many questions I raised with my deutsche friends and will relate the answers as I receive them... but in principle I would refrain from seeking any public notoriety and keep our private clubs just that, until we cannot find the internal consensus and the external support to also operate as (or vocally and publicly support other bodies in being...) watchdogs of professional practice.
There are many ways of doing this and not necessarily do they all imply being sued for slander...which is the mighty-phantom scare-flag which big associations always wave at critics who ask questions.
That is why the german case is so interesting.
As for me, I would very much hope that both volunteers and managers of professional associations be stripped of all alibis, appear naked, and seriously argue with their members what they are truly after...which cannot reasonably be everything.
I also hope that Margaretha Sjoberg from Sweden and president of Cerp will pick this issue up again as she recently did and stimulate open and public debate amongst our professional associations.
Also I dare dream that the Global Alliance might maybe decide to stick its head out of the sand for a moment for a good breath of fresh air...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This takes us back to some of the earlier posts of tonisblog. Who does the association represent?<br />
Its members? The profession?<br />
And&#8230; according to this which are the consequences?<br />
Let me explain:<br />
°if I decide that my association represents its members, then I will be stimulated to do everything possible to make sure that its members behave differently from the rest of the professional community in order to gain that competitive advantage&#8230;.but, in this case, there is no way I can coherently pretend to represent the profession per se (legal recognition etc&#8230;);<br />
°if, instead, I decide to represent the profession as such, then I will be stimulated to be as big as possible in order to gain public legitimacy by numbers, and also to investigate, speak out etc,etc, on issues of public concern&#8230;.including increasing manifestations of black pr.<br />
As far as I know very few associations, if any, have debated this issue at lenghth and decided a policy.<br />
We tend to remain always on both sides of the fence (the interest group and the club) and show one side of our face according to a situational interest.<br />
This is both hoghly debatable management practice as well as a good dose of cinicism&#8230;but that is reality.<br />
So? Where do we go from here?<br />
I am anxious to receive from Germany answers to the many questions I raised with my deutsche friends and will relate the answers as I receive them&#8230; but in principle I would refrain from seeking any public notoriety and keep our private clubs just that, until we cannot find the internal consensus and the external support to also operate as (or vocally and publicly support other bodies in being&#8230;) watchdogs of professional practice.<br />
There are many ways of doing this and not necessarily do they all imply being sued for slander&#8230;which is the mighty-phantom scare-flag which big associations always wave at critics who ask questions.<br />
That is why the german case is so interesting.<br />
As for me, I would very much hope that both volunteers and managers of professional associations be stripped of all alibis, appear naked, and seriously argue with their members what they are truly after&#8230;which cannot reasonably be everything.<br />
I also hope that Margaretha Sjoberg from Sweden and president of Cerp will pick this issue up again as she recently did and stimulate open and public debate amongst our professional associations.<br />
Also I dare dream that the Global Alliance might maybe decide to stick its head out of the sand for a moment for a good breath of fresh air&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: João Duarte</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2007/04/blogging-from-vilnius-on-black-pr-a-really-freezing-shower-for-all-of-us/comment-page-1/#comment-313</link>
		<dc:creator>João Duarte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=210#comment-313</guid>
		<description>Good Point Markus. That is the global problem with justice and most associations lack the means to conduct investigations to gather those proofs.

It would be interesting to know how the German Association managed to do it.

However, I notice that in a small country like Portugal or Austria we have the problem of close relations and personal relations becoming more important than relationships based on professional standards. That&#039;s what I was trying to bring about.

João Duarte</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good Point Markus. That is the global problem with justice and most associations lack the means to conduct investigations to gather those proofs.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to know how the German Association managed to do it.</p>
<p>However, I notice that in a small country like Portugal or Austria we have the problem of close relations and personal relations becoming more important than relationships based on professional standards. That&#8217;s what I was trying to bring about.</p>
<p>João Duarte</p>
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		<title>By: Markus Pirchner</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2007/04/blogging-from-vilnius-on-black-pr-a-really-freezing-shower-for-all-of-us/comment-page-1/#comment-312</link>
		<dc:creator>Markus Pirchner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=210#comment-312</guid>
		<description>Is it really that professional associations are &quot;afraid to expose&quot; cases of black pr? Most cases of malpractice are based on a mutual agreement of non-disclosure of the accomplices, so it&#039;s more a lack of evidence than the associations&#039; reluctance to take action.
Everbody knows it, many do it - but the hands of the associations are tied because they have no proof. (As the proverb goes: Where there&#039;s smoke there&#039;s ... pollution ;-) But we&#039;d need more than just smoke, we&#039;d need hard facts.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it really that professional associations are &#8220;afraid to expose&#8221; cases of black pr? Most cases of malpractice are based on a mutual agreement of non-disclosure of the accomplices, so it&#8217;s more a lack of evidence than the associations&#8217; reluctance to take action.<br />
Everbody knows it, many do it &#8211; but the hands of the associations are tied because they have no proof. (As the proverb goes: Where there&#8217;s smoke there&#8217;s &#8230; pollution <img src='http://www.prconversations.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  But we&#8217;d need more than just smoke, we&#8217;d need hard facts.)</p>
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		<title>By: João Duarte</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2007/04/blogging-from-vilnius-on-black-pr-a-really-freezing-shower-for-all-of-us/comment-page-1/#comment-311</link>
		<dc:creator>João Duarte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:21:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=210#comment-311</guid>
		<description>Toni,

Impressive data and above all, impressive reality. I&#039;m sure we are all aware of the cultural differences (some of them have been mentioned in Tonisblog) that make it normal (in countries like e.g. China ) for Journalists to accept bribery in order to go to press conferences. But I totally agree that black PR is not a problem only in Eastern europe.

As for Portugal, I can say that the logic of the PR market is mostly based on mid-level professionals with only Journalism studies and entry-level professionals with different backgrounds (including PR and Communication). This kind of structure seems not the ideal one to avoid black practices, most of them performed by ex-journalists working on the &quot;other side of the fence&quot;. Bottom line is that the existence of the so called black pr practices (although not proofed and most of all, not assumed by any of the important actors of the field, except maybe some academics) is unquestionable, at least from what we hear and what we see in the news.

I totally agree with you that this is the kind of sindrome that exists in many countries: professional associations are &quot;affraid&quot; to expose (or even to privately deal with) bad cases. The curious thing is that this is a stigma that, as PR practitioners, we constantly counsel our clients to avoid. We insist that &quot;the first step to deal with a problem is to acknowledge it&quot; while we keep running away from our own problems. In fact, this explains why so many PR Agencies and Associations fail to have a PR Department while trying to make others believe in the power of PR.

João Duarte</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toni,</p>
<p>Impressive data and above all, impressive reality. I&#8217;m sure we are all aware of the cultural differences (some of them have been mentioned in Tonisblog) that make it normal (in countries like e.g. China ) for Journalists to accept bribery in order to go to press conferences. But I totally agree that black PR is not a problem only in Eastern europe.</p>
<p>As for Portugal, I can say that the logic of the PR market is mostly based on mid-level professionals with only Journalism studies and entry-level professionals with different backgrounds (including PR and Communication). This kind of structure seems not the ideal one to avoid black practices, most of them performed by ex-journalists working on the &#8220;other side of the fence&#8221;. Bottom line is that the existence of the so called black pr practices (although not proofed and most of all, not assumed by any of the important actors of the field, except maybe some academics) is unquestionable, at least from what we hear and what we see in the news.</p>
<p>I totally agree with you that this is the kind of sindrome that exists in many countries: professional associations are &#8220;affraid&#8221; to expose (or even to privately deal with) bad cases. The curious thing is that this is a stigma that, as PR practitioners, we constantly counsel our clients to avoid. We insist that &#8220;the first step to deal with a problem is to acknowledge it&#8221; while we keep running away from our own problems. In fact, this explains why so many PR Agencies and Associations fail to have a PR Department while trying to make others believe in the power of PR.</p>
<p>João Duarte</p>
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		<title>By: Markus Pirchner</title>
		<link>http://www.prconversations.com/index.php/2007/04/blogging-from-vilnius-on-black-pr-a-really-freezing-shower-for-all-of-us/comment-page-1/#comment-310</link>
		<dc:creator>Markus Pirchner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:17:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.prconversations.com/?p=210#comment-310</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have an answer right now for the question how we should proceed with this discussion but it definitely is something that has to be dealt with on the level of professional associations.
Btw. it is one of the topics that the Austrian association (PRVA) has put on its priority list. I did a podcast interview about questions of ethics with the new president of PRVA today. URL is: http://news.prva.at/index.php/weblog/prvanewscast10_ethik_unternehmenserfolg/ (german only, sorry, but if you understand German it&#039;s worth listening to).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have an answer right now for the question how we should proceed with this discussion but it definitely is something that has to be dealt with on the level of professional associations.<br />
Btw. it is one of the topics that the Austrian association (PRVA) has put on its priority list. I did a podcast interview about questions of ethics with the new president of PRVA today. URL is: <a href="http://news.prva.at/index.php/weblog/prvanewscast10_ethik_unternehmenserfolg/" rel="nofollow">http://news.prva.at/index.php/weblog/prvanewscast10_ethik_unternehmenserfolg/</a> (german only, sorry, but if you understand German it&#8217;s worth listening to).</p>
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